tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14281048.post112422099192067509..comments2023-10-25T05:08:00.800-04:00Comments on Music, Faith and Ecology: Theology of the Word and the Postmodern Context: #2Johnhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07939984108331588658noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14281048.post-1124375488227311442005-08-18T10:31:00.001-04:002005-08-18T10:31:00.001-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.bj woodworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14638506200571654795noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14281048.post-1124375462682779262005-08-18T10:31:00.000-04:002005-08-18T10:31:00.000-04:00to bring things back around to Karl Barth... he be...to bring things back around to Karl Barth... he believed that the Word was always to be discerned, discussed and interpreted within the context of community. the communion of saints is the corrective. <BR/><BR/>I have never considered ordination from a missiological perspective. Migliore's quite is life-altering and life-affirming for me. Thanks Marlena! the problem with the current system is that ordination is not preparing missiologically trained people rather it is training acedemics. Secondly the model of ordination preparation (yes seminary) is to cumbersome for the postmodern setting. It does not make missioolgiocal sense to remove a person from his/her context for 3+ years. this model does not encourage mission!bj woodworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14638506200571654795noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14281048.post-1124309552313605462005-08-17T16:12:00.000-04:002005-08-17T16:12:00.000-04:00here's the larger question for me about ordination...here's the larger question for me about ordination - what's the process? and is it a good process?marlaenahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13798602068103798645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14281048.post-1124309358094431202005-08-17T16:09:00.000-04:002005-08-17T16:09:00.000-04:00i think there are some in the body who possess a s...i think there are some in the body who possess a spiritual gift of discernment. but i also think that all of us as Christ followers are to be discerning. there's a difference.<BR/><BR/>Ruth Barton has an excellent article on leadership discernment and she simply defines discernment as "discernment: the capacity to recognize and respond to God’s will both personally and in community." (here is the full article link - http://www.thetransformingcenter.org/Feb2005.aspmarlaenahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13798602068103798645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14281048.post-1124303713120787552005-08-17T14:35:00.000-04:002005-08-17T14:35:00.000-04:00Yes, the trouble with communicating in text only i...Yes, the trouble with communicating in text only is that there is no vocal inflection or body language to go along with the words, not to mention the fact that there can be no immediate response. The danger of misunderstanding one another is very high. I didn't think that you were saying that there is no need for leadership. I guess I was just laying out my own thoughts and beliefs. I have a tendency to process in writing at times. I should have thought more about that before posting the comments. I apologize if you found them offensive.<BR/><BR/>Also, to clarify my thoughts about discernment, I was not saying that it is a gift that should be used without the other gifts of the body. I guess that when you said communal discernment, I thought you meant that everyone had that gift. Again, sorry. Perhaps I'm just way out of my league here.<BR/><BR/>- RossAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14281048.post-1124301510165805882005-08-17T13:58:00.000-04:002005-08-17T13:58:00.000-04:00I agree that certain people have the gift of disce...I agree that certain people have the gift of discernment, I know people with that gift. Our gifts are to be used within the body of Christ, communally. Not as single people out there using their gifts without the context, ears and voice of the whole body. Scripture also tells us that we are to seek all the gifts, some we have more fully and some we have to constantly work to have. <BR/><BR/>Ross, yes, the trialogue is where discernment should be exercised the most. Though we do allow people to speak and share in worship, there is potential for "heresy" to be spoken in worship, so there must be some discernment there too. <BR/><BR/>I really appreciate what everyone has said about ordination, I think I was just having a doubtful day yesterday! Your thoughts are very good and I appreciate them! I really like the Migliori distinction between a missiological distintion and an not an ontological. And Ross, your are exactly right about the need for leadership. While I wrote about communal hearing and proclaiming of the Word, I did not mean to say there is no leadership.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07939984108331588658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14281048.post-1124300171118061732005-08-17T13:36:00.000-04:002005-08-17T13:36:00.000-04:00I love the way the OD does things. I have always ...I love the way the OD does things. I have always enjoyed trialogue. The insights that come out of that group are always more and deeper than what I believe any of us could have come up with on our own. The thing that bothers me a little bit is your use of the words communal discernment. It is my understanding that discernment is a gift of the Holy Spirit given to some, but not to all. <BR/><BR/>Maybe I'm just misunderstanding what you're saying, but it seems to me that a heresy being spoken or "preached" by a single person could be avoided if this gift were utilized in the trialogue stage. Perhaps that is exactly what you are saying. Could you clarify?<BR/><BR/>As far as the ordination question is concerned, it is my belief that the church does need leaders. I also believe that scripture and the present action of Jesus in the world are accessible to every human being, but I don't believe that everyone takes hold of them. In a seeker-sensitive model of church such as the OD, those that enter through our Open Door will not be entering THE Open Door at first. A lot of our culture has an empirical mindset and they base what they believe simply on what they experience. Church doors are not going to keep deceiving spirits from entering and leading people astray through their experiences. Just look at the churches in scripture frought with sexual immorality, gnosticism, et cetera. That is why I believe that leadership is necessary. There need to be those who are dedicated to serving (key word) the Lord and each other in this way. I also believe thay need to fit into the Timothy model of character for such people.<BR/><BR/>The question is not whether or not to have leaders, it is what does that leadership look like. I think we need to guard against the hierarchical model of church leadership and enter into a more communal one where the leaders serve among the community much as Jesus served within His community while on earth. I also agree wholeheartedly with the comments in Marlaena's post about ordination being a missiological rather than an ontological practice. Being ordained does not change our nature as humans or the Biblical model of how we are to relate to one another as such, but it does change our function within the church. I think the problem is the terms clergy and laity and the connotations they hold. Let's change that.<BR/><BR/>- Ross DonaldsonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14281048.post-1124299618255573492005-08-17T13:26:00.000-04:002005-08-17T13:26:00.000-04:00Excellent stuff Terry and Marlaena! Thanks!Excellent stuff Terry and Marlaena! Thanks!Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07939984108331588658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14281048.post-1124228358059462512005-08-16T17:39:00.000-04:002005-08-16T17:39:00.000-04:00john,i've been reading about ordination in stan gr...john,<BR/><BR/>i've been reading about ordination in stan grenz's book "theology for the community of God" (pgs 563-570). grenz talks about ordination into pastoral ministry in particular and gives some biblical and theological foundations. from what i gathered it boils down to publicly setting apart leaders for the people of God - "ordination is the act by means of which the community sets gifted persons in leadership for the effective working of the whole membership toward the completion of their common purpose." And he also talks about call - a personal call from God and a confirmation of that call by the faith commmunity.<BR/><BR/>i'll end with this quote full of fun theological terms:<BR/><BR/>"As Daniel Migliore noted, 'ordination is properly understood missiologically rather than ontologically." Ordination does not facilitate an ontological change in the clergy, elevating them above other Christians. Instead, the act commissions a person into leadership for the sake of the mission of the entire people of God."<BR/><BR/>mcmarlaenahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13798602068103798645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14281048.post-1124227146642166202005-08-16T17:19:00.000-04:002005-08-16T17:19:00.000-04:00We call it a trialogue (BJ's wording) to emphasize...We call it a trialogue (BJ's wording) to emphasize the thoughts within ourselves, the discussion of others in the group and the with God. Self, God and others.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07939984108331588658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14281048.post-1124225912274813692005-08-16T16:58:00.000-04:002005-08-16T16:58:00.000-04:00john -i appreciate your grappling with the clergy/...john -<BR/><BR/>i appreciate your grappling with the clergy/laity thing. here is reference from a journal article that really helped me reshape my thinking on the issue. i think it is interetsing that the author speaks of an apostolic context and setting:<BR/><BR/>"the New Testament writers thus apply the Old Testament laos terminology to the new covenant community as a whole, with no distinction between the people and their leaders. The New Testament terminology does not support the contemporary division between classes of Christians. In the apostolic church there were different ministries to fulfill, but there was no distinction between a group of clergy and another of laity. Leaders never stand over, independent of or prior to the local congregation as the people of God." (Dean Flemming, “The Clergy/Laity Dichotomy: A New Testament Exegetical and Theological Analysis,” Asian Journal of Theology 8, (October 1994): 236.<BR/><BR/>perhaps the emerging church is more reformed than the reformed church of today; novel thought.<BR/><BR/>question, john: why trialogue and not dialogue?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com